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fluk's avatar

thank you for the post and the interesting perspectives. i'm esl and i've worked as an english teacher for the last 10 years. i got to the 'c2+' level in high school. i worked with kids first and now mostly teach business english. i've also learned french (pretty good) and japanese (a fascinating nightmare).

i love the 'symphony of the word' idea and the explanations with the dogs. i think that is EXTREMELY important, and should guide the whole learning process more.

this is maybe the most interesting part of learning a different language - it's not that we describe dogs with a different sound, but they are actually a different concept. this happens A LOT and is extremely important as it, in a way, teaches empathy and understanding; a 'dog' might be a very different thing for someone else. it's a more practical version of theory of mind, and a window into how different cultures are.

if you go with the 'learn XXX most used words and their translation' method, you'd learn that 'I' = 'watashi' in japanese. that's first of all, not true, second of all, really boring compared to the truth.

also, i had some success teaching, and the single most important variable was the motivation of the learner. it'd always be very slow or almost impossible if somebody was learning to impress another person, or 'just in case' or to 'order a meal in a restaurant'. however, i had some rocket speed progress when english was a door to some forbidden fruit (for kids) or a clear path to more money (for adults). e.g. i got a kid from failing the english class to being the best in school by watching and discussing 'breaking bad' with him.

when it's interesting and useful, it goes really, really fast. i see this is a big part of what you describe, i just wanted to highlight how big the difference can be, and that you should build the whole process around it. flashcards, vocab lists, schoolbooks are NOT interesting, and therefore almost always slower than presenting the kid something that they want to understand (i think this was a part of your post on presenting a kid with a piece of code). the reason and motivation for learning needs to be always in the centre. i feel like this might have something to do with the american failure to learn a second language that you describe. i believe it stems from a sense of superiority and lack of visible gain - 'what can i learn from these people if my government has dominated them militarly? clearly their model is worse'.

i learned a lot about teaching doing the celta course - you might want to look into their method, aimed at transforming native speakers into teachers in a month.

no self promotion, but i'm working on an app building around immersion, translation, and 'binary search'. the idea is you see a phrase and two possible translations and choose the better one. instead of clearly assigning X = Y, we learn what the sentence can mean, and what it doesn't, and narrow the actual meaning. there are no vocabulary lists, no other exercises, the user is expected to just immerse themselves in doing a lot of exercises quickly, like interactive, phrase-based anki.

i hope to use data + language models to make the sentences really perfect for each user. so you don't learn "100 most used nouns". you learn exactly the phrases you need based on your bio/social media/whatever context.

i'd love to hear your opinion on that, and how you think it could be improved.

thanks for your takes and good luck with learning! i believe there is no better adventure than feeling sapir-whorf on your own skin. i also strongly agree that the purpose of language is to communicate with other humans, so forums, chats, letters, etc might be a better idea than flashcards or some kind of memorisation with no partner.

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Laura Gibbs's avatar

I'm finding all of these language reflections fascinating (I just know about your work tangentially from a friend doing Science Is Weird and loving it, which is how I discovered your substack) -- my focus is Latin and Greek, so pronunciation is less a concern of mine, but I am a big advocate of fluency and meaningful language use, and one strategy I use is proverbs for vocabulary building; don't just learn a word -- learn a proverb. I'm currently doing daily proverb emails for Latin and Greek students (you can see blog stream at LauraGibbs.net), and I would be glad to volunteer to do proverb vocabulary banks for Italian or Polish if anyone adopts either of those languages (I speak both), and at a stretch I could also do Spanish and Russian (which I read but don't speak). And if anyone is interested in Latin or Greek, I am glad to volunteer my services (I'm currently developing a Latin course for a friend: LATIN WITHOUT CHARTS, doing case-by-case instead of declension-by-declension as Latin textbooks usually do, and do badly...). Best wishes for all your work! Laura (I'm at laurakgibbs@gmail.com)

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