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Timothy Johnson's avatar

Love this post! My wife and I were actually just checking out Classical Conversations this week, and we had some similar reservations.

A note on games: I've used (for example) Kahoot! quizzes in a few different classes, both as a student and as a TA. They're actually pretty useful as a quick assessment tool. It can help you figure out if a class actually understands what's going on without needing to call on every person individually.

But as a study tool, I agree that gamification doesn't really work. To quote my favorite essay ever, _The Weight of Glory_ by C.S. Lewis:

"There are different kinds of rewards. There is the reward which has no natural connection with the things you do to earn it and is quite foreign to the desires that ought to accompany those things... The proper rewards are not simply tacked on to the activity for which they are given, but are the activity itself in consummation."

Lewis mostly was interested in how we think about heaven when he wrote this, but I think his insight applies equally to education. The proper reward for studying a subject well is that you eventually understand and enjoy it. Shifting the focus of a class to some unrelated game risks undermining that proper reward.

However, Lewis continues with an example that is directly related to classical education:

"An enjoyment of Greek poetry is certainly a proper, and not a mercenary, reward for learning Greek; but only those who have reached the stage of enjoying Greek poetry can tell from their own experience that this is so. The schoolboy beginning Greek grammar cannot look forward to his adult enjoyment of Sophocles... He has to begin by working for marks, or to escape punishment, or to please his parents, or, at best, in the hope of a future good which he cannot at present imagine or desire."

Lewis himself was, of course, classically educated. So I'm assuming this last sentence accurately depicts the way that most classical educators think about motivation (or at least did historically - it may have changed in the last hundred years). Namely, making education more interesting for students is nice sometimes, but it's more important for students to learn the discipline to study a subject for months or even years before they receive any real payoff. And in the long run, the effort they put in will be worth it.

I think you (and Egan) would disagree with this. I've never tried to learn Greek, but I can quickly think of some easy ways to incorporate Egan's tools - e.g., illustrating vocabulary words using stories from Greek mythology.

It sounds like the main difference between you and someone like Leigh Bortins is that you would rework the whole curriculum to center around the stories, where she would just toss them in occasionally for a bit of flavor. Does that sound right?

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Hazel Woods's avatar

There's so much to like here!

1.

In a lot of myths and stories, knowing someone or something's real name gives you power over them. Naming things is a form of magic spell! The Bible is quite big on this too, from Genesis 2:20 "And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field" to Exodus 3:14 where Moses asks the Lord's name and gets the famous "I am that I am" back - one, admittedly unorthodox interpretation of this is that the Lord is not willing to share his true name with Moses, because magic. And in Jewish culture, the four-letter name is not spoken these days but paraphrased as HaShem (literally: The Name) out of respect. So yes, names matter.

(I think it was Scott Alexander who said when he was a child and learnt some Japanese words, he asked "Why don't the Japanese call things by their true names?")

2.

If I had to choose between a full-on classical educator and a full-on "progressivist" as State Director of Education, I'd probably vote for the former, in the hope that then at least some children would learn something in school.

But that's just projecting everything down to one dimension. Just like politics doesn't live on the single axis from liberal to conservative - some models measure economic and social liberalism/conservatism separately, for example (which at least gets you that libertarians are a separate cluster in 2D space).

Since this is a serious discussion on education, it's time to mention one of my favourite Harry Potter fan pages - which came up in the back of my mind even before you said "Classical education just works for Ravenclaws". It's the "sortinghatchats" model where you are sorted into two houses: your primary is why you do things (Ravenclaw: because systems, Hufflepuff: because people, Gryffindor: because honour, Slytherin: because loyalty) and your secondary is how (Gryffindors charge, Ravenclaws plan, Hufflepuffs toil, Slytherins scheme/improvise). The primary/secondary distinction doesn't mean one is more important than the other, just that we have a 2-dimensional model and we needed names for the axes.

In this model, Ravenclaw secondaries are the ones who like lists and facts and would get most ecstatic at the thought of Learning in Depth, whereas Ravenclaw primaries are the ones who get something out of science experiments, I think? The kind of person who asks why fluoride and chloride have properties in common, and ends up inventing the periodic table.

The point here, to me, is that if we want school to work for people who are not double Ravenclaws, then we have to address both the "how" and the "why". Classical education has some gaping holes here, which the progressivists can legitimately contribute to filling, and Egan's suggestions (in my reading) touch much more on reaching people across both primary and secondary houses. Maybe Gryffindor primaries (intuitive "felt" morality) will be inspired more by the mythic and especially romantic, and Ravenclaw primaries more by the Philosophic, but they can all get something out of education in their own way.

However, a word of caution here. A big part of "modern science" includes areas where the ability to abstract and model formally is essential - the sort of thing that algebra and formal logic classes are useful for getting you started on. The hard part here is not the logic, but the level of abstraction involved. (Kids can reason logically just fine in domains they have interest and knowledge/experience in - to see this, just ask a 6-year old if a tyrannosaurus ever fought a triceratops.)

The subjects that need this abstraction include programming/comp sci for sure, most jobs with "data" or "machine learning" in the name, mathematics at university level, quant finance, and a lot of engineering. It's not a perfect overlap with STEM but it's close enough. The problem is to most people - even quite a few Ravenclaws (especially primaries), I'd guess - this is a profoundly unnatural and inhuman way of thinking about things. It can be learned and trained, but it's really hard to motivate. (The people who are naturally inclined to this are not a perfect overlap with autistic people, but again, close enough.) Why water in a pond in winter ends up freezing at the surface but stays around 4 degrees Celsius further down much longer, is a question with a lot of science behind it that's comparatively easy to make interesting. The scope of a variable in a recursive algorithm, not so much.

3.

And finally, a political grumble. The summary of The Core on the amazon page you linked to includes a lot of good arguments ("Without knowing the multiplication tables, children can't advance to algebra.", "Most curricula today follow a haphazard sampling of topics"). But it also dips its toe into tribalism by accusing these haphazard curricula of "a focus on political correctness instead of teaching students how to study". (I guess this was written before everyone was saying "woke".) To me, apart from being tribal, that misses the point of why I'm not on team "progressive". The problem for me is the "they don't teach students how to study" part. The focus on promoting some form of justice and equality - that's one of the things they get right! (At least in principle. There is no shortage of examples of cringeworthy bad implementations of this idea in practice.) Whenever someone tries to appeal to a conservative audience by saying that schooling today is "too much of a mess, and too woke", those are two separate dimensions. If you only focus on the second one, whatever your views on social justice, you won't build a better system - you'll just have a different kind of mess centered around the Bible or something.

Whether this problem is in the book or just in the review, I don't know - I haven't read the book yet but I'm going to buy a copy. But it's again a question of separating out the "why" from the "how" - whether you want to make your students become patriotic conservative citizens or anarchist progressive internationalists, might determine what content you put in your curriculum, but that's still a separate dimension from how you make your school engaging. If we could only treat the second question as a non-partisan one, we could get so much done.

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